Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:10:56 +0000
Subject: Re: BHA: Democracy is capitalism


Dick/James

Oh - sorry - understood and I would normally assume that to be the case 
as it's a common confusion, but I'm just a leftist who was recently 
lectured by his anti-globalist daughter that some terms cannot be 
allowed to remain within the ownership of the right.... (who am I to 
argue with that rather wonderful sentiment...)

regards
steve

Moodey, Richard W wrote:

>Hi Steve,
>
>I agree that "democracy" is not identical to "capitalism."  In defense of James, I think he was referring to the tendency of many who are enthusiastic about capitalism to equate it with "democracy."
>
>Best regards,
>
>Dick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: steve.devos [mailto:steve.devos-AT-krokodile.co.uk] 
>Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 6:53 AM
>To: bhaskar-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>Subject: Re: BHA: Democracy is capitalism
>
>
>James
>
>Said "democracy is capitalism" - this is nonsense. Even Alain Badiou 
>does not make such a draconian statement - he puts forward the 
>acceptable and arguable position the parlimentary politics as practised 
>today merely functions to make things work better by "turning the 
>spectacle of the economy into the object of apathetic, thought obviously 
>unstable public consensus." Badious's position is intelligent and 
>sensible and does not deny that 'democracy' has a  place, just radically 
>critiques the way that the institutions function in our social systems. 
>Whereas James denies that democracy has any place in a radical 
>understanding of society. [How nice to be so avant-garde...]
>
>Science should be more democratic and accountable - of course it isn't, 
>perhaps that's why it consistently fails to live up to our 
>expectations... (When I was a teenager I was told that human beings 
>would have reached Mars by now - instead they produce better lipsticks 
>and robot dogs for Sony...)
>
>regards
>steve
>
>James Daly wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hi Steve
>>
>>"a social-democrat like Popper could hardly be expected to agree with 
>>Marx and Hegel" -- in fact they were prepared to annihilate the planet 
>>to to defend capitalism and save the world from communism. Perhaps he 
>>should have called for social democrats "to adopt a version of the 
>>Hippocratic Oath to restrain their propensity for harm."
>>
>>One example of Popper's dishonest "scholarship" is his misquoting Marx 
>>on a crucial issue as saying he wished to discover the "laws of 
>>society", whereas Marx said "the laws of modern society", i.e. 
>>capitalism.
>>
>>One can be a Cold Warrior without being paid for it, but acquiring the 
>>status of a Cold War manual certainly helps a book's sales, as it did 
>>Isaiah Berlin's.
>>
>>" '... to make science game-like and democratic as possible...' ". 
>>Science is not game like or democratic: games theory is just bourgeois 
>>ideology; "democracy" is capitalism.
>>
>>"Popper's version of science is essentially dialectical...". Popper was 
>>always ferociously anti-dialectical, and his denial of being a 
>>positivist turned mainly on the philosophically minor grounds of being 
>>a falsificationist instead of a verificationist, though in addition he 
>>also implausibly said metaphysical statements could become testable 
>>hypotheses.
>>
>>"... pitting one hypothesis/theory against another over a disputed 
>>issue. This goes back to Athens, the model being Socrates model of 
>>questioning, constructed in the 18th/19th [this should presumably be 
>>12th/13th] centuries as the 'academic practice of scholarly 
>>disputation' ". This is a frequently repeated but unconvincing 
>>ontogenesis of dialectic, which I think began with Plato's Parmenidean 
>>and Heraclides inheritance, and his practice of hierarchical 
>>classification.
>>
>>All the best
>>
>>James
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "steve.devos" <steve.devos-AT-krokodile.co.uk>
>>To: <bhaskar-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 9:36 AM
>>Subject: Re: BHA: Re: Re: Primacy of practice, sophistry, and other
>>fun stuff
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Mervyn
>>>
>>>Within the philosophy of science perhaps the biggest argument of the 
>>>century is between Kuhn notable 'The structure of`scientific 
>>>revolutions' and Popper -  like most  people on the left I also
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>assumed
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>that the below rationale was broadly correct - Fuller has done a 
>>>remarkably good job of throwing this presumption into question.
>>>
>>>I am not concerned to defend Popper regarding the Open Society or
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>the
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Poverty of Historicism, after all a social-democrat like Popper
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>could
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>hardly be expected to agree with Marx and Hegel,  rather the
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>interest I
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>have is in Fuller's attempt to recover the philosophy of 'science'
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>and
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>'knowledge' from the predominance of the relativist Kuhn's paradigm 
>>>shifts, 'where knowledge is adequate to its objects'. The argument
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>goes
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>that Popper '...took seriously both that science aspires to
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>universal
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>knowledge and that scientists - our representatives in this project
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>are
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>inherently flawed and biased agents. The result was to make  science 
>>>game-like and democratic as possible...' But to clarify this
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Popper's
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>version of science is essentially dialectical pitting one 
>>>hypothesis/theory against another over a disputed issue. This goes
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>back
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>to Athens, the model being Socrates model of questioning,
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>constructed in
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>the 18th/19th centuries as the 'academic practice of scholarly 
>>>disputation', from this derives the German dialectical tradition and
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>of
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>course Hegel and Marx.  An example of this dispute in a non-science
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>area
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>is the Popper/Adorno dispute over positivism which when looked at
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>shows
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>perhaps rather typically that they are remarkably similar... both 
>>>anti-positivists, both dialectical thinkers, one a marxist the other
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>a
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>social-democratic liberal.
>>>
>>>A single issue it seems to me throws the outright rejection into
>>>question:  "At the height of the Vietnam War, Karl Popper called for 
>>>scientists to adopt a version of the Hippocratic Oath to restrain
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>their
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>propensity for harm."
>>>
>>>regards
>>>sdv
>>>
>>>Mervyn Hartwig wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I don't know about Kuhn, but anybody of intellectual integrity with
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>a
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>reasonable familiarity with Hegel and Marx who reads The Open
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>Society
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>and its Enemies and The Poverty of Historicism could scarcely doubt
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>that
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>Popper was a cold war warrior. He is not only sly, he is dishonest, 
>>>>deliberately suppressing key words and omitting context in quotes
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>to
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>suit his cold warrior distortions and travesties. His
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>characteristic
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>method is to set up a scarecrow and demolish it as if it were the
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>real
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>thing. To spring to his defence on this issue in the current
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>context can
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>only mean to defend the totalitarian commercialism (Collier) that
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>Popper
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>himself promoted and which is now being imposed on the world by all 
>>>>force necessary. (The very skies over London have been emptied for
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>the
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>god of totalitarian commercialism to arrive as I type this...)
>>>>
>>>>Mervyn
>>>>
>>>>steve.devos-AT-krokodile.co.uk writes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>James
>>>>>
>>>>>The fifties cold warrior labelling of Popper has been challenged
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>in very
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>interesting ways by Steve Fuller just recently in his book Kuhn vs
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>Popper.
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>As Fuller points out it is Kuhn who is in the pay of the coldwar
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>warriors...
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>(this is not to disagree or comment on the thrust of the below -
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>merely to
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>spring to the defence of popper...)
>>>>>
>>>>>regards
>>>>>sdv
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi Carroll
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Your punchline was strong -- that the purpose of reading Plato's 
>>>>>>Republic was to understand The Enemy.  But, only one? Why is his
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>name
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>>on Lenin's tomb?  Your approach calls to mind the Fifties cold
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>warrior
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>>Sir Karl Popper's *Open Society and Its Enemies*, after which
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>George
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>>Soros named his foundation. Slyly, Sir Karl manages to suggest
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>that
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>>Plato's target is workers who must be kept in their place,
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>whereas his
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>>real target (see the Gorgias) is the unscrupulous Nietzschean
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>rich who
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>>want to exploit and rule.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is nearly always forgotten that the society of Plato's first
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>choice
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>>is a communist one, and that the rest of the argument is about a 
>>>>>>second-best society. And even the second-best society is not a
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>class
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>>society in Marx's sense, in that the philosopher rulers do not 
>>>>>>appropriate the surplus, but live a frugal life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I suppose the jury is out on whether Plato meant by "gennaion
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>pseudos"
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>>Big or Noble Lie, or both, but the myth of noble and base metals
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>in the
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>>soul is an answer to the problem of legitimising the rule of 
>>>>>>reason, and defending it against the power of wealth. Lenin had
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>the
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>>same problem. It's quite a problem!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>James
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>   --- from list bhaskar-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
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