Subject: Re: AUT: science, technology and ecology
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:42:17 -0500


 > I disagree then that catching a fish can only be a dominative
relationship.
> If we consider examples from other cultures, we find that most foraging
based
> cultures have spiritual relationships with the animals they catch.

this might be true, but how easy is it for this to become a dominative
relationship? i have serious doubts that, at least within capitalist society
(since we are inundated with alienating social relations), is it possible to
"catch fish", etc. without it being a "dominative relationship". (and i have
serious doubts that even in post-capitalist society would it be possible to
"catch fish" without it being a "dominative relationship" given the 1000s of
years of class society-based social relations we'll have to still be
scrubbing away.)

and i would say that "spiritual relationships" are indicative of an
alienated existance on some level since it implies a disconnection that one
has to attempt to make whole again thru ritual, etc.

> Similarly,
> the planting and harvesting cycle was heavily ritualised in precapitalist
> European society.

and "precapitalist european society" was still a class society, and
alienation was certainly present (aside from ritual and "spirituality").

>  The kinds of relationships we build with nature in the
> future are undetermined.

i agree... just like a post-capitalist world is undetermined. however, if
that world is to be communist in any sense, that is: against alienation and
for community, then the domination of the rest of nature must be subverted
just as the domination of human's over human's must be subverted.

now, i'm not saying everyone needs become vegan, or some such (tho i
wouldn't complain, to be honest =P)... but i do question the possibility of
human beings ever overcoming their alienation from the rest of nature unless
we overcome our dominance over it in every sense. that is: since we can
think about our actions, and choose to interact in certain ways, and also be
effected by our interactions on every level, i have doubts that
de-alienation from the rest of nature (and thus communism, in any meaningful
sense)  is possible unless we are ending our dominative activities, and
completely subverting the hierarchies in place over the rest of nature as
part of that process.



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