Date: Fri, 21 May 2004 14:14:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Where have all of the anarchists gone? (was Sarin inBaghdad)


<P><I to want,<BR you whatever Say anymore.   not I?m idealist.  an be used>Bush is killing people by the thousands and bringing the world closer and<BR>closer to an edge that we, as a species, may not come back from.   Kerry or<BR>any other person who gets theri hands on the reins may make corporations<BR>a lot of money and that is a bad thing.  But no one in the US that has even<BR>a remote chance of getting their finger on the trigger is as likely to<BR>pull it as is Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney/Wolfowitz and the rest of that crew. <BR>It is as simple as that: Put someone in power that allows us to live and<BR>struggle for another day, or take a chance on the end of the world.></P>
<P>Since you didn't read between the lines i will state this explicitly. If anarchists work to gather votes for Kerry or some other shithawk, they will succeed in nothing but strengthening faith in democracy. This has nothing to do with anarchist practise (which was the whole point of my original comment). We will not be alive to struggle another day because we would have already renounced anarchist possibilities by becoming democrats. As much as Bush has fucked things up they have also fucked up. Things aren't as bad as they can get, they could have made this latest invasion look like an Orwellian nightmare. And no one would have been the worse for wear because they would not have understood the implications of this democratic freedom. You give these fuckers more time, they will perfect covert methods of control.</P>
<P>You are using the same Armageddon politics you may have once hated. There is no finger on the trigger. I will state once again that this is a democracy we are dealing with, not a dictatorship. There are individuals, groups and technology involved in the structure we call the state. What Clinton did in his terms does not disappear. He invaded a nation killing thousands of people, and participated in the economic destruction of Iraq. While there are people who consider democracy as something controlled by the citizenry, there are others who believe it can be controlled from within. The Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney/Wolfowitz faction (including many others behind the scene) had a fair knowledge of taking the reins. Perhaps we are fortunate they fucked up, but the next group may not leave us so lucky.</P>
<P>Kerry has a systematic connection to Bush. You can be sure that Histeria will not disappear if Kerry is elected. And the security apparatus will continue to tighten with at least four years of tinkering. We anarchists, if you haven't already noticed, are implicated. We may survive to fight another day, but the fighting may not start until the system has had another eight or twelve years to strengthen itself. And the next hijackers may be a little smarter than Bush (that of course will not take much effort).</P>
<P><IS as<BR themselves sees crew This all.  at Not dramatic?  overly that>being on a Crusade, in the real sense of Medieval times.  Bush actually<BR>said it once and you only have to understand the mindset of any religious nut<BR>to see they think if Armageddon is what is coming, then so be it: Killthe Turk.></P>
<P>I sometimes think "Oh my god" when i am shocked, but that does not mean I am a religious person. You're engaging in the worst case scenario, armageddon politics. Bush is a democrat with fundamentalist beliefs and christian values. He is a capitalist. Crusade for him and many other people does not mean the same thing as it does for us. It is symbolic. What they want to do is institute american democracy worldwide, not recreate Medieval Crusades.</P>
<P><I you it<BR think if care don?t I futile, it thinks goat>futile, I don't care period:  These people will end the world to serve the<BR>cause of fundamental xtianity. People who think this war is about oil don't<BR>read the message.></P>
<P>Really, I don't think what you're trying to do is futile. I do sympathize with people wanting to remove Bush (but i don't want anyone else on the throne). I only want to see the anarchist perspective in it. I am not personally concerned with survival. I want to live. I am not content with simply existing within this society. I want to find ways that we can bring this whole thing crashing down so that we may all determine our own lives. So my cynicism of the vote.</P>
<P>I think oil is considered in this war, but you're right that oil is not the major factor. I would suggest however, that it is the spread of American capitalist democracy.</P>
<P><BUSH his<BR and Bush hasn?t.  Kerry on.?   them ?Bring said>lackies gave up any pretext of civilized behavior in Afghanistan and Iraq.  If you<BR>think arguing economics is the thing to do, then have at it. But you are<BR>deluded if you think that will preserve society in the next 4 years.></P>
<P>So what. Bush said, "Bring them on." Kerry may not have quoted those words. but do you think he will pull out of Iraq?? Kerry will also "stay the course."</P>
<P>If not Civilized, what are they? This is the height of civilization my friend. The actions in Iraq are as civilized as you can get. "wanna bulldoze a house while we listen to jazz?"</P>
<P>i'm not arguing economics, just saying it is one of many other factors. i am in no way looking to preserve this society.</P>
<P><TEMPORARY not<BR do UK US the where condition a creating means relief>using Weapons of Mass Destruction while diffusing the conditions that make<BR>it likely others will which in turn gives Bush etal the excuse to do it<BR>for flimsy cause.  Do you honestly believe these guys will not nuke <BR>someone?  We were lucky the Taliban folded so easily. These people<BR>think there are viable situations for using nuclear weapons. We will<BR>create anarchist societies if that happens, for sure.But there just won't<BR>be many people around to enjoy those fruits.></P>
<P>Well put. They may indeed nuke someone. But that doesn't mean we should support the political system and give up anarchist principles. Instead we should develop an anarchist critique which will allow us to take out self-determined actions. If you don't want to play chess you can always throw away the pieces. -AT-ists may learn from the bravery of quakers.</P>
<P><<<BUT not I Kerry do bosses<BR of rid get help will for voting how see>(i do understand that as you might be a boss you could still want to be<BR>rid of them), get rid of GMOs/Industrial farming, tear down security<BR>cameras from every street corner, fuck off the cars etc.>>></P>
<P><NO said <BR by change economic inflicting about anything ever, one>voting.  It will not happen.   That is a straw man.></P>
<P>That is not what i argued. That is a straw man.</P>
<P><YOU you the of those<BR condemn Yet order.  social fruits enjoy>others who do so. So if you do this guilt free, evidently you do nothing to<BR>further the capitalist order. Therefore you must only take from it.></P>
<P>I never condemned anyone. You are creating a false world.</P>
<P><SEEMS ?liberal<BR what me Tell you.  becomes hypocrisy like></P>
<P>I have given up guilt for one. The work ethic, and the need to be a "functioning part of society" for another. I never said this would bring a collapse. But they are changes which may eventually help me self-determine my life.</P>
<P><AND I it a for <BR what prison. in employed been have yes, worth, is>Since I've been on this list even. I taught school there. I taught<BR>55-year old men to read. Did I have to? Well, no. I could have dumpster-dived<BR>my way to obesity. The medical profession has its bureaucracy, is that<BR>a bad thing? Or do we just remove it and let anyone with a bag of dried<BR>chicken feet and desiccated goat entrails claim to heal?></P>
<P>This is a little different from being a prison guard. One might say you were doing something worthwhile. I realize some of us have to get jobs. I am currently looking for work, and try to get jobs in which I will be helping others (food banks etc.).</P>
<P>I recently found out I have a heart condition. Sometime before that I was having chest/arm pain, passed out unconscious and was taken to the emergency room. Someone with goat entrails and chicken feet actually would be appealing after that incident. I am young, no reason for me to have heart trouble (despite the fact i told them my family history), it was the weekend (so in their mind i was drunk, fell down and hit my head, and the fall caused the pain in my arm). I was told to go home. The dead chicken itself may as well have been reading the EKG, because my condition clearly shows up on the reading (the cardiologist explained it to me in five minutes and showed me the reading) and could be understood by pretty much anyone. So much for Canadian health care and its bureaucracy. </P>
<P><ONE I a of is a<BR run bureaucracy.  running indeed wage-jobs my>"poor relief office." Yes, I supervise taking a half-million bucks a year<BR>and have tofigure out ways to get it to those most in need.  That takes <BR>employees.  In our current incarnation if no one dispenses aid to<BR>those who need it, then no aid is given. It would be quite trotskiest to say<BR>not giving aid to those in need would be wise as then we could create <BR>revolutionaries. But what would YOU have them do, eat cake?></P>
<P>So now you're suggesting i'm a trot. of course, i had no idea of what this bureaucracy was. There is no way i would suggest denial of aid to create revolutionaries. While I do critique charity, I do participate and seek paid employment in food/furniture banks. </P>
<P>I do not support bureaucracy in any way, but neither do I think what you are doing is so bad. Another bureaucracy might be a little different. Hopefully, you can maintain a coherent critique of what you are doing however.</P>
<P>Mike</P></I></I><BR>
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