Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:30:42 -0500
To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Ideas: Universal Library of Knowledge


<Because "Zeit" refers to time -- "geist" spirit -- the spirit of the
time was at different times, different places, but to the same
effect.>

I like that "spirit of the time"



On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:22 AM,  <puppetpro-AT-aol.com> wrote:
> Let's get our terms clear.
>
>
>
> Zeitgeist is different from synchronicity and the collective unconscious. I think of an example of synchronicity being the fact that pyramids were created in different parts of the world by vastly different cultures without any (seeming) connection to one another...did they share a common Zeitgeist? Well, no. Because "Zeit" refers to time -- "geist" spirit -- the spirit of the time was at different times, different places, but to the same effect.
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> We'll never really know the Zeitgeist of Egypt when the Great Pyramid was built, since no one really kept records of it. Picasso painted in response to a specific time and spirit and sent his energy and message out to the cosmos -- and the iconography of Guernica has outlasted the times in which it was created. It may not last as long as the pyramids, though.
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> Mythology is also more than Zeitgeist. It may be "a dream of a people" --  but it a dream that continues, and thrives, and allows the people who share it to thrive as well, over generations. An artist painting the myth of Horus on the wall of an Egyptian tomb may have had a dream of how to portray him -- and his dream may have risen up, as you say, from the well of the collective unconscious -- or perhaps it was a response to the specific Zeitgeist in which he lived.
>
>
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> Myth in its modern sense is often confused with lie or untruth. Masses of Germans of the 1930's were duped by propaganda developed by people like Goebbel
> s who wished to create another Egypt, or Classical Greece, or Rome...They based their ideology on many other ideas "welling up" at that time.
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> It is always interesting to me that both Hitler and Goebbels were failed artists. Had they even had a smidgeon of success as artists, perhaps the world would have been spared their politics.
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> Rolande
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> I guess what I mean is that the artist is reflecting what is welling
> up from the depths for others to reflect upon.  They are not taking
> part in the energy, but are giving it form for others to see.  Someone
> brought up Picasso's "Guernica"  The piece reflects the madness of
> carnage in war.  Picasso doesn't take part in the carnage though.  The
> imagery comes out of Picassos knowledge and imagination and to what
> extent ones imagination leads to a common collective unconcious we can
> only muse.  It is interesting to think about. I think the breakfast
> they all ate together was the dream of being the super nation (super
> race) and the new techologies that make the scenario possible and the
> wheels begin to turn.  "a myth is the dream of a people" (J. Cambell)
> And the myth of the Germans was to be the super race.
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:15 AM,  <puppetpro-AT-aol.com> wrote:
>> Hobey,
>> It's difficult to tell exactly the Zeitgeist of the time in which you live,
> since it's always hard to get a true perspective without the lens of time. That
> so many dictators came in power duri
> ng the 1930's was definitely  Zeitgeist. Did
> they all share the same breakfast choice? What was it that caused this to happen
> all over the world?
>>
>> The economics of this present day can be linked directly to a series of greedy
> acts by several individuals and corporations. "take what you can while you can
> get it" was perhaps the war cry.
>>
>> Puppetry, being a composite art, may reflect many things within a culture --
> but does it contribute to these types of world -wide waves?
>>
>> The third reich had a puppet theatre, because it was believed that puppetry
> was a powerful medium to control people's beliefs...did it help their cause? Not
> sure.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Rolande
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Hobey Ford <hobeyone-AT-gmail.com>
>> To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
>> Sent: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 8:26 am
>> Subject: Re: [Puptcrit] Ideas: Universal Library of Knowledge
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There is another term "Zeitgeist" (sp?) Which suggests that at any
>> moment in a culture, there are ideas of themes laying in the
>> subconcious of the whole culture that many artists, ect will tap into,
>> The results suggest that those creators put their head together first.
>>  They are ideas ripe for tapping into.  It is like a hot spot bubbling
>> up from the depths.  When I created my Turtle Island tales show which
>> used sh
>> adow and slide projectors and was funded by the Henson
>> foundation.  That year Tears of joy had a Native American tales show
>> with shadow and slide p
> rojectors and was funded by the Henson
>> foundation and neither of us had spoken to each other about it.  The
>> Zeitgeist idea is intrigueing.  There are obvious influences like new
>> technologies hanging like ripe fruit and ideas brewing in the
>> collective unconcious or even below the surface in the popular
>> culture.  Carl Jung said he could see the seeds of the German third
>> Reich rising from the depths in the dream symbols of psychiatric
>> patients in Eastern Europe in the early 30's. These archetypes can
>> rise out of a whole culture.  I'm sure he would have something to say
>> about our present situation if he were around.  Like maybe  greedy
>> wall street guys unconciously undid our economic system to save the
>> planet from global warming.  The paradigm of our culture has certainly
>> hit a ditch and is seemingly crumbling in several ways perhaps to make
>> room for the next cycle.  Change is definitely in the Zeitgiest.  So
>> it will be interesting to see what bubbles up in our creative work in
>> this time.  Have any interesting dreams lately?
>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 7:56 AM,  <puppetpro-AT-aol.com> wrote:
>>> I think the ideas to which you are referring are :  1. synchronicity
> and/or,
>> 2. collective unconscious.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rolande
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Mathieu René <creaturiste-AT-primus.ca>
>>> To: puptcrit-AT-puptcrit.org
>>> Sent: Mon, 820Dec 2008 1:06 am
>>> Subject: [Puptcrit] Ideas: Universal Library of Knowledge
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>0A>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm talking about some form of repository of knowledge and ideas to be
>>> developped, that most of us have access to, if we are predisposed or work
>>> for it enough.
>>>
>>> THis might explain how many inventions were invented simultaneously by
>>> diffrent people. Or how monkeys from one place start washing potatoes, and
>>> the techniques gets picked up almost immediately by some others on the other
>>> side of a sea.   Or how an idea, if kept too long a secret and undevelopped,
>>> gets passed on, like magic to someone who will do something about it.
>>> When it's time to come out, it makes its way to the surface!
>>>
>>> It's been discussed by philosophers and other scientists for a long time.
>>> I'm very curious about that topic.
>>> I think it would make a great starting point for many puppet shows.
>>>
>>> Anybody care to share recommended readings, images, shows about it?
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>>
>>> Some thought about it:
>>>
>>> I think kids have an easier access to the Universal Library of Knowledge (it
>>> has other names, I'm sure).
>>> How many among us have invented things that were already on the market?
>>> I believe we just had to figure things out, somehow. The fact that someone
>>> else has thought
>>> about it before doesn't take away the merit of figuring
>>> things out,  if we really came up with it, without knowing about previous
>>> versions. I remember coming up with the 3 ski sleigh.
>> Showing it to my
>>> father, he laughed, and showed me the sto
> re catalogue. The sleighs had been
>>> on the market for maybe a year. No praise for my figuring things out (with
>>> sketches and explanations). Some parents are so clueless sometimes!
>>>
>>> But I digress.
>>> Must be the bed calling, it dulls the mind.
>>> Or is it the other way around???
>>>
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