Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:34:34 +0000
From: "steve.devos" <steve.devos-AT-krokodile.com>
Subject: Re: more on cyborgs and the inhuman




Hugh

except for the 26million people who migrated or were refugees last year...

regards
steve

hbone wrote:

>Eric/All,
>
>One doesn't change the past, one changes one's mind - the same way one
>changes one's  mind about the future.
>
>One isn't a citizen of the world, for there is no world group that has
>citizens. One is automatically citizen of her/his birth country which can
>punish inappropriate behavior with death or lesser penalties.
>
>best,
>Hugh
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Eric wrote"
>
>>hugh/glen/all:
>>
>>Bateson, Olson and I are not talking fatalism here. What we are saying
>>is that one of the reasons the earth doesn't do a good job of taking
>>care of its feathers and society is precisely because of the Occidental
>>Cartesian view of the Agent as separate and delimited that our culture
>>has been implicitly advocating. We are all implicated in this complexity
>>and what I have been advocating in terms of the cyborg is the simple
>>recognition of this basic insight.  The Bateson quote came from his
>>essay "The Cybernetics of Self: A Theory of Alchololism." Here is
>>another quote from that essay:
>>
>>"In sum, I shall argue that the "sobriety" of the alcholic is
>>characterized by an unusually disastrous variant of the Cartesian
>>dualism, the division between Mind and Matter, or, in this case, between
>>conscious will, or "self," and the remainder of the personality.  Bill
>>W's stroke of genius was to break up with the first "step" the
>>structuring of this dualism."
>>
>>"Philosophically viewed, this first step is not a surrender; it is
>>simply a change in epistemology, a change in how to know about the
>>personality-in-the-world.  And notably, the change is from an incorrect
>>to a more correct epistemology."
>>
>>God can't change the past perhaps, but we can, by the way we interpret
>>it!
>>
>>eric
>>
>>
>>>Eric,
>>>
>>>Bateson could have enumerated all the atomic particles of all the atoms
>>>
>of
>
>>>all the molecules in all the proteins in all the cells of the axman.
>>>
>After
>
>>>the fact, such totality and inevitability
>>>seems to confirm pure fatalism..  Even God cannot change the past.
>>>
>Those ax
>
>>>strokes seem to have little effect on the social fate that threatens
>>>Occidentals and Orientals alike.  If your boat sank you could remember
>>>Bateson, take nap while your body swam ashore.
>>>
>>>Olsen is right too,  Its a poetic thought.   Of course, the whole earth
>>>takes care of the feather, and all the other feathers, and societies,
>>>
>often
>
>>>badly.
>>>
>>>Its the old question of who are we and what can we do about it, and why
>>>
>does
>
>>>it matter?
>>>
>>>best,
>>>Hugh
>>>
>
>
>

HTML VERSION:

Eric/All,

One doesn't change the past, one changes one's mind - the same way one
changes one's  mind about the future.

One isn't a citizen of the world, for there is no world group that has
citizens. One is automatically citizen of her/his birth country which can
punish inappropriate behavior with death or lesser penalties.

best,
Hugh

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eric wrote"

hugh/glen/all:

Bateson, Olson and I are not talking fatalism here. What we are saying
is that one of the reasons the earth doesn't do a good job of taking
care of its feathers and society is precisely because of the Occidental
Cartesian view of the Agent as separate and delimited that our culture
has been implicitly advocating. We are all implicated in this complexity
and what I have been advocating in terms of the cyborg is the simple
recognition of this basic insight.  The Bateson quote came from his
essay "The Cybernetics of Self: A Theory of Alchololism." Here is
another quote from that essay:

"In sum, I shall argue that the "sobriety" of the alcholic is
characterized by an unusually disastrous variant of the Cartesian
dualism, the division between Mind and Matter, or, in this case, between
conscious will, or "self," and the remainder of the personality.  Bill
W's stroke of genius was to break up with the
 first "step" the
structuring of this dualism."

"Philosophically viewed, this first step is not a surrender; it is
simply a change in epistemology, a change in how to know about the
personality-in-the-world.  And notably, the change is from an incorrect
to a more correct epistemology."

God can't change the past perhaps, but we can, by the way we interpret
it!

eric

Eric,

Bateson could have enumerated all the atomic particles of all the atoms

of

all the molecules in all the proteins in all the cells of the axman.

After

the fact, such totality and inevitability
seems to confirm pure fatalism..  Even God cannot change the past.

Those ax

strokes seem to have little effect on the social fate that threatens
Occidentals and Orientals alike.  If your boat sank you could remember
Bateson, take nap while your body swam ashore.

Olsen is right too,  Its a poetic thought.   Of course, the whole earth
takes care of the feather, and all the other feathers, and societies,

often

badly.

Its the old question of who are we and what can we do about it, and why

does

it matter?

best,
Hugh